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Real Women DO Wear Dresses by JaybieJarrett Real Women DO Wear Dresses by JaybieJarrett
I really hate the Real Women Never Wear Dresses attitude [Relevant link-[[link] out TV tropes]

A girly girl is not an automatically sexist or weak character. Too many people underestimate internal strength. You don’t need violence and asskicking to be an awesome character. I’m starting to feel that badassness has become-forgive me but- overrated. Having a badass character is all well and good; I have a few characters that I might consider such. But it’s not the only kind of worthwhile character to have.

A character that is strong on the inside-even yes if they cry- who keeps going on in spite of it all can be just as awesome as a guy who can take down a bunch of enemies. A character that can take care of herself and even cleverly work her way out of a bad situation is also a strong character.

Hollywood’s “Strong Female Characters” characters who are made to adhere to society’s idea of what a strong character should look like are too often unbelievable fantasies- sometimes even outright Mary Sues-and kind of shallow. A real strong character is one who can stand on their own two feet and characters who get knocked down but keep getting back up. If she never faces a real challenge I have a hard time counting her as a strong character. A proverb (not sure where it comes from) says that people are like tea bags and their true flavor comes out when they are in hot water. A character that’s always faced easy challenges and took down opponents without breaking a sweat is going to crash and burn when a real threat comes along and the character who has actually built up skills with practice and hard work is going to be the one that will fare better.

Females who have interests that are ‘traditionally feminine’ are not sexist and they are certainly not weak. I always find it surprising that some people call themselves ‘feminists’ and shun everything feminine. Feminism isn’t “doing things as good as the guys” or “better than the guys” it’s no less or no more than believing that females should have rights and be able to make their own choices.

Two characters I believe are awesome female characters that are still girly are Rarity from MLP Friendship is Magic and Winry Rockbell from the Full Metal Alchemist comic. Winry has often gotten flak for being supposedly sexist.

Because…she cries and does girl things. Nevermind that she is resilient and keeps strong in the face of danger and horrible circumstances. Or that she is resourceful and smart. She cries when she sees her friends face terrible danger and tragedy and when she faces her own parents’ killer. And That’s Terrible.

Doesn’t anybody see how ridiculous that sounds?
There is nothing wrong with emotions, contrary to popular belief, and having them does not make you weak. Many of the occasions where Winry cries are to me very logical situations for a person to cry. I would probably cry when watching my friends suffer a painful loss or facing the man that killed them. Also I heard her criticized for being ‘weak’ because she didn’t shoot Scar.

So let me get this straight. The fact that she didn’t kill someone, going against everything she stood for, despite extreme temptation makes her weak?

…..I don’t think so. Seems like some people’s ideas of what makes strength and weakness are pretty mixed up.
It is extremely easy and sometimes tempting to toss your convictions out the window and do something because the person deserves it. Giving into that isn’t strength. While revenge may seem ‘badass’ to people, it isn’t exactly strength. It’s just letting obsessive anger rule your life and allowing it to twist you into someone you’re not. Winry wasn’t weak; she only saw that her killing Scar in revenge would only continue a vicious cycle. She chose to end it regardless of how angry she probably felt and how she probably hated him.

Yes, she cooks, she does laundry. Big deal. Some people actually enjoy cooking. They’re not made to. They like it. Should they be prevented from doing something harmless that makes them happy because of their gender? That sounds exactly the same as people in the olden days saying women shouldn’t take jobs because they’re women. It’s not progressive, it’s just the same thing in a different package. As for the laundry well someone’s got to do it, right? What if there are no men in the house? Should a woman just let the dirty clothes pile up? Um….ew.

Extra pet peeve note. To the people who think a homemaker/stay at home mom is weak- think again. You’re in charge of not just cleaning but, cooking the meals, managing money to keep groceries on the table, and taking care of children. Not to mention anything that may break around the house, oh and all chaperoning falls to-guess who-you. Have you ever taken care of a child? That is a very tough job. Trust me…I’ve babysat before. Children are energetic, extremely curious and often dependent on some adult. They fight, yell, talk back and get hurt. Boy do they get hurt. Don’t get me started on babies. They’re completely helpless and probably the most vulnerable creatures on the planet. If they fall and get hurt, it’s not ‘oops’, you’re in deep crap. Also, they cry and scream in the middle of the night or any hour of the day. Still sound easy? Being a homemaker is like being the head manager of your own store. It’s a rough job and someone has to do it.

Now Rarity. She’s a fashionista and prime example of a girly girl. Yet, not helpless and not weak. In one episode she used her wits to work her way out of a hostage situation by the time help arrived. She also runs her own business, which takes some serious managing skills. So she’s certainly not useless or a damsel in distress.

Despite being the fashion queen of the group her core virtue is generosity. She’s a nice person, who goes out of her way to give to her friends. This type of character is extremely rare in the sea of cookie-cutter mean queen bees. It’s why I love her character honestly, she moves beyond stereotypes.

Ahem- getting a little off track there. But anyway, my point is what makes a female character a sexist stereotype is not simply having girly traits or sticking her in a dress It’s a character that has feminine traits because it’s ‘expected’ rather than it truly fits her character, or when she can’t do anything for herself, depending on the men in her life for everything. Believe it or not you can also have a female who never wears dresses be an annoying stereotype. Like the fiery woman who goes around punching men or picking fights (and is hailed a hero for it). Or the women who bitterly hates all men or even the girl who doesn’t even seem like a real girl but rather a generic guy with girl parts.
The answer to avoiding annoying or sexist female characters is simple and should be applied to all character creation.

Just write a character who is a person first and foremost. Always have a reason for the traits you give them and see that they make sense for the character. Have your character find some way to pull their own weight to take part in the plot (it doesn’t have to be fighting) . To avoid making them a Damsel or The Load, make them independent and able to fend for themselves in some way or another, and don’t make them do stupid things to get themselves captured for the sake of drama. If they are captured, have it be because the villains are very skilled and dangerous. Avoid having one character get captured over and over again. They should learn from their experience if they can. Just think when you create them and allow them the same amount/range of personality you would everyone else.

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:icondjhiryu508:
DJHiryu508 Featured By Owner Nov 13, 2014
Most tomboys I've met can't take HALF the punishment or have the endurance as some of the "girly girls" I've met!
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:iconjaybiejarrett:
JaybieJarrett Featured By Owner Nov 14, 2014  Hobbyist Writer
Ohh

yeah, I don't think feminine vs. Masculine interests are any indicator of strength or lack therof.  
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:iconsweetkiranz:
SweetKiraNZ Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2014
Yeah this girl said she hated girly girl characters. Because she says they are weak and stupid for going after men. And tomboys are coool.
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:iconearthangel87:
EarthAngel87 Featured By Owner Sep 17, 2014  Hobbyist Artist
I hate the "Real Women Don't Wear Dresses" mindset with a passion, because I think it's just as misogynistic as saying all women should just "stay in the kitchen" (since the idea behind it is that feminine/"girly" =weak, stupid, and unable to care for oneself). Feminine women and girls can be badass,  too! Then again, it's kind of related to how some people think "damsels in distress" are automatically weak female characters, which is not always the case.
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:iconjaybiejarrett:
JaybieJarrett Featured By Owner Sep 17, 2014  Hobbyist Writer
Yeah, It's bad to tell girls they SHOULD be this, or SHOULD be that.
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:iconyumethenekomata:
yumethenekomata Featured By Owner Aug 25, 2014
i love how people don't mind much when a male chara is weak but if a female one is then she automatically sucks or is sexist
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:iconjaybiejarrett:
JaybieJarrett Featured By Owner Aug 25, 2014  Hobbyist Writer
I think it's an issue when she's the only major or only female character, or if the author claims that it's because she's female that she's weak.  But then again, when you have only one member of any demographic you have that problem.  You can't expect a single person to represent an entire group.  Then any flaws you give that person could be taken as Unfortunate Implications of the whole group.   That's why you should have multiple sexes/members of a group if you can help it.  
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:iconwhiteknightx5:
WhiteKnightx5 Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2014
Here is an interesting quote that should show that "girly" female characters have strength of their own. 

"Violence is not strength and compassion is not weakness" 

Also brilliant article. :) 
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:iconearthangel87:
EarthAngel87 Featured By Owner Sep 30, 2014  Hobbyist Artist
"Violence is not strength and compassion is not weakness" -That's a great quote!
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:iconwhiteknightx5:
WhiteKnightx5 Featured By Owner Sep 30, 2014
It's from the film Camelot. 
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:iconjaybiejarrett:
JaybieJarrett Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2014  Hobbyist Writer
That's very true. and thanks. Badass characters are nice but not every character should be a badass. 
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:icondabair:
DaBair Featured By Owner Feb 22, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
I try to find middle ground with my female protagonists. My Pokemon X and Y fanfics portray Serena as liking "girly" things like clothing and dancing, and frequently wearing dresses, but also as a genuinely strong Trainer who is clearly much stronger than Calem. (I did the same with Hilda from Black and White - my fics clearly make her a hardcore, lifelong Trainer while Hilbert ends up retiring from Pokemon training at seventeen.) The same fic features a female villain (my OC Carabosse) in a pink 1700s style dress...who, later on, ends up being a VERY dangerous villain who actually tries to kill Calem. Ironically, the story makes Calem the more dependent one, and at one point he gets captured by a woman who wants him to stay away from her daughters (never mind that the daughters were acting trampy towards him and he was fending them off).

Especially in girly fandoms I often have both nice and mean fashionistas. I have dozens of Ever After High OCs, several of whom are fashionistas. There are both nice ones (Viorica and Amandine - both OCs are in my gallery) and mean ones (Toutebelle - a character I created for the EAH fandom wiki who isn't on my dA profile yet). I actually have a lot of male fashionista characters, many (if not) of whom are good guys.

I also hate the fact that strong female characters often get tomboyish names whereas weaker female characters get more girly names. A woman named Jordan isn't automatically more badass than a woman named Aurelia.
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:iconjaybiejarrett:
JaybieJarrett Featured By Owner Feb 23, 2014  Hobbyist Writer
Me as well.  I feel like the cause of "token  female" and related Unfortunate Implications about that are caused by people having only ONE female character that ends up carrying the burden of  'representing women '.  So I try to make sure I have multiple female characters with  a variety of personalities and interests. 
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:iconaerisilatwilight75dx:
Aerisilatwilight75DX Featured By Owner Feb 19, 2014  Student Traditional Artist
I agree with you :D
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:iconjaybiejarrett:
JaybieJarrett Featured By Owner Feb 19, 2014  Hobbyist Writer
Thank you :3
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:iconaermaria:
Aermaria Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013
Sorry if this is a late comment but I applaud you for writing this article. It's nice to see that someone else realizes this.

I have feminine interests: I like girly-girl shows like Sailor Moon, W.I.T.C.H, and Winx Club, I like to sew and make costumes, I like Lolita fashion, and I like the color Pink (Oh the inhumanity!)

I also have masculine interests: I like video games, I have an interest in motorcycles. I hardly ever wear makeup and I don't mind if I have to get dirty.

I have to admit I still cry a great deal. However, I only do it when I am deeply saddened or stressed. What would you have me find a more anti-social way of dealing with stress like yelling or beating someone up?

I admit there will be times where I will have to fight and the first thing I have to accept is that I might die and if I do oh well, if I get saved by a man fine, if I get saved by a woman then that's fine too. I don't know what the outcome will be so I'll just take what I can get and move on with life (if I'm still living that is).

However, there are more ways to avoid conflict besides fighting and if you can avoid it then do that instead. This is not some patriarchal belief that women need to follow this is the basic philosophy of martial arts that any student be they male or female are expected to follow.

I also have boyfriend. However, he is also my best friend and confidant. I can talk to him about anything and he can talk to me. We enjoy each others company immensely. He does not want me being a so-called "Damsel in Distress" he has told me multiple times that he will not always be there for me and that I must stand on my own two feet and I can.

Sorry if I am preaching to the choir and making a long winded speech. I just wanted to point out like you have that people in general are complex and that most people expectations of how a certain person should act are very unrealistic and immature. People cannot be summed up as being this certain thing or that certain thing we are all complex and there is more to us that meets the eye regardless or gender, race, sexual orientation, etc. Most people, especially so-called "Feminists" do not seem to realize this or simply do not want to.
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:iconjaybiejarrett:
JaybieJarrett Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Oh its fine, I make speeches too.

I believe wholeheartedly in equality of the sexes and what comes with that, that neither "femininity" or "masculinity" is bad all by itself. A feminine character is not weak because she like shoes and likes to shop, she is weak if the writer adds on traits like incompetence or dependence. They are not part of femininity.

While I agree with the original intention of feminism the dictionary definition (see: my feminism stamp) I don't agree with people who turn feminism into a gender war.

Also what does it really say if you think that a female can only be strong if she does what you would consider "boyish" things. Doesn't that send a mixed message?
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:iconaermaria:
Aermaria Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2013
It does at least in my opinion. It's perfectly fine if a girl wants to be tomboyish that's her choice of how she wants to be as a person. It is also her choice if she wants to be girly. It is not okay however when someone states that you must act a certain way be it that you should "stay in the kitchen" or that you should renounce everything that is feminine, never get married or involved in a relationship, and not show any emotion at all and consider them worthless if they do not follow your expectations.

Yes it sends a mixed message because as mentioned it is expecting someone to act a certain way because that is what you feel they should be like both sides are guilty of this.

Really what actual feminism is about is having a girl live her life the way she wants to and be seen as a human being. Plus if any radical feminists want to see real sexism and gender inequality then go visit countries like India, Vietnam, and Somaliland.
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:iconjaybiejarrett:
JaybieJarrett Featured By Owner Jan 8, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
I agree on the choice thing.


I do believe there is still sexism in America still, it's gotten better but it hasn't gone away. Considering humans are flawed it probably will never completely go away. The countries you mentioned are worse about it.

Basically , if you are fighting sexism you're fighting a belief, not a group of people. Because when you just make it into fighting the people you think are to blame , you're not fighting sexism you're just furthering it.
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:iconhannahapplepie123:
Hannahapplepie123 Featured By Owner Oct 4, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Me and my Bff's will be wairing dresses AND rocking out at homecoming. :XD:
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:iconjaybiejarrett:
JaybieJarrett Featured By Owner Oct 4, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Awesome !:)
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:iconhannahapplepie123:
Hannahapplepie123 Featured By Owner Oct 4, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Yeah it's gunna rock. :meow:
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:iconjaybiejarrett:
JaybieJarrett Featured By Owner Oct 4, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
*high five*
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:iconhannahapplepie123:
Hannahapplepie123 Featured By Owner Oct 4, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
*high fives back* :)
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:iconalamostown:
alamostown Featured By Owner Sep 28, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
This is one of my favorite stamps of all time. I read "Little Women", which is a very old book about four girls growing up, and these girls all wear dresses, could be considered girly, and live in the 1800s after the Civil War. But you can relate to all of them. They are smart, and though they don't save the world or anything. They live regular lives that girls would in their time period. But they are amazing and it felt like I knew them. Even though a character isn't boyish or always wears dresses, that doesn't mean they are not strong female characters!
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:iconjaybiejarrett:
JaybieJarrett Featured By Owner Sep 28, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
I know . and that sounds cool I've heard of it and read a few stories from it in 6th grade reading.
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:iconxxthatcreepygirlxx:
XxThatCreepyGirlxX Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
:iconthisplz:
Sailor Moon, Futari Wa Pretty Cure, Roberta from Black Lagoon.....all can prove these people wrong! :D
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:iconjaybiejarrett:
JaybieJarrett Featured By Owner Aug 23, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Yeah :>

Thanks for the fave.
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:iconquasar-mouse:
Quasar-Mouse Featured By Owner Jul 20, 2012
Hoo boy... I hope I got this right with some of my characters.

I like that proverb you brought up, as well as the message in this stamp!
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:iconjaybiejarrett:
JaybieJarrett Featured By Owner Jul 20, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Thanks very much!

Don't worry as long as you just treat the females like people, rather than singling them out for any kind of special treatment you should be fine. That's all I'm arguing against. :)
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:iconthe-thrashy-one:
The-Thrashy-One Featured By Owner Jul 13, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I absolutely love your argument in the description and agree with it 100%. :)
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:iconjaybiejarrett:
JaybieJarrett Featured By Owner Jul 13, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Thanks :)
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:iconnaokoelric2250:
NaokoElric2250 Featured By Owner Jul 13, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
If I did not win, I would rather die fighting off a mugger/rapists/general attacker, knowing that I did all on my own, than live with the pathetic, sexist humiliation of being saved by a MALE, friend or stranger (not that rape is better). If a female saved me, then I would admire her strength.

I will not stand for any MALE trying to 'protect' me, psychically or mentally, friend or stranger. I will tell the sexist pig to get the hell out or my way and let me deal with my own problems.

When I confront my mother's abuser, I will not weakly, parenthetically, and pointlessly cry. I will hold my head high and confront him. And once I have my answers (or not), I will beat the l8ving day lights out of him, for the sake of my mother and his other daughter, my half-sister).

While I do mourn the dead, I see no point in wasting time crying over them. Besides, I hardly think they want that.

I can say all this for certain, as a real, strong, self-respecting, dignified, honourable woman, even with being caring, selfless-as-I-can, low in confidence and self-esteem, and anti-war.

FYI, Winry did not choose not to shoot, Edward butted in and stopped her, after 'protecting' het, so much does Arakawa love her double standards and blantant sexism and misogyny (not that I dislike her)
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:iconjaybiejarrett:
JaybieJarrett Featured By Owner Jul 20, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Also I forgot to add -I didn't see Ed stopping Winry as an act of sexism . He was stopping his good friend form making a terrible mistake. The kind of mistake that in the past-as he'd learned- has led to lots of problems and bloodshed. I really don't think it had much to do with Winry being female.

On double standards:

Saying a woman shouldn't cry, but men should cry-double standard
saying a woman can't/shouldn't be a healer but a man should-double standard

Female characters shouldn't get any kind of super special treatment because they're female. They should be treated like any other character. That's equality and the world needs more of that.
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:iconnaokoelric2250:
NaokoElric2250 Featured By Owner Jul 22, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
No, equality would be having all those sexist-to-females events and tropes to be balanced out with non-sexist, Gender Flipped ones. Only then will I eveny consider accepting the female version. Alas, this will never happen, so I never will accept them.

BTW, I understand you do want a debate, and I am fine with that, but I will be replying to the other comment, will you at least read it, please?
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:iconnaokoelric2250:
NaokoElric2250 Featured By Owner Jul 22, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
It was sexist, it cannot be any of that crap and here is why - first of all, Arakawa had him jump in front of Winry to 'protect' her like a sexist, chuvanist pig, as she loves that sexist shit and trope (I Will Protect Her/You. Females do not fucking need protection by males!)
Next, Arakawa established already that the Elrics keep events from their journey, life and decisions a secret from Winry, as they do not want her involved...but it is perfectly fine for Edward to get involved with her life and decisions? That is a Double Stanard. Finally, continuing from the last point, it is none of Edward's fucking business what choice she makes. He could have adviced her not to do so, but stopping her outright? No, that is unacceptable. I know I would only advice my best friend (who is male) were they in that situation, and I think he would in regards to my father (though he support my karmatic desire).

(continued in next comment. Using PS3)
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:iconjaybiejarrett:
JaybieJarrett Featured By Owner Jul 16, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Okay…wow. It seems like we’re in serious disagreement here. Thank you for taking time out of your day to reply to my stamp. But I don’t want this to come into a huge debate, so I’m going to explain my reasoning for my feelings and if we disagree then, hey we’ll just agree to disagree because I don’t want to spend days going back and forth bickering. I also apologize for being a bit late. I’ve been working more than usual for the summer. Also your comments made me think and I wanted to give a good thoughtful response. You’re right that opinions are opinions. Maybe I should reword that.>.>

First of all I’m not certain why you linked me to your essay-I read it and understood it. This is my response. Reading it again is not going to change my mind.
Now I agree that children should not be forced into girly things because they’re girls. It’s a problem that people pigeonhole “girl things” and “boy things”. Girls should be given the freedom to make their own choices on who they want to be. If they should choose some girly interests on their own, free of prompting, however, there’s nothing wrong with that. She shouldn’t be shamed for it. Another problem with our society is the idea that things that aren’t masculine and super-active in nature are weak and worthless.

There are multiple ways to do things, and different situations call for different approaches. Some things require a more active approach (fighting) and others require less active (doing something other than fighting) approach. Neither approach is inherently wrong by itself. I personally am a little sick of hearing people act like fighting and violent action is the only important thing in the damn world and if you don’t do that you’re worthless. People who heal other people are in fact pretty damn important. Now honestly I do admit I would love to see an ‘action healer’ /fighter healer (of either gender) as it would not only be really awesome but practical (healing your own wounds, pretty useful). I’m not in a medical career but it appalls me a little that you would write off healing –which could certainly extend to medical professions- as not doing something. You want to tell me that the female surgeons of the world aren’t accomplishing anything productive. Saving lives can’t be that important can it?

Fighting has a time and place. Having all females refuse to fight all the time is problematic yes. But sometimes for men and women, it’s not cowardly but intelligent to back down or choose not to engage in a stupid fight or a fight with someone that could kill you. I’d much rather be a coward and alive/accepted help and be alive rather to be foolhardy and dead. There is a lot of space between being completely dependent on someone and getting help every now and then. There’s an old saying that no person is an island, meaning that it is impossible to do everything by oneself. It seems pretty rude to refuse help from someone because of their gender. I mean I can get it if they’re being obviously patronizing. But if someone just sees you having a hard time and extends a hand to help, it’s not always because they think you can’t do it. I would see no shame in getting help when facing something I’m not as good at like a physical battle-from a woman or a man- and then make a point to help out that person with my own individual strengths sometime down the road.
In my opinion in an ideal series, there should be action guys, action girls as well as both non action guys and non action girls. Both sides treated equally. Only switching the roles –having girls be tough as nails and guys be passive and emotional- is not progress at all and soon will become a negative stereotype itself.
I find it interesting that you mention double standards. Your comment about crying implies that it’s all right or should be all right for males to do something but unacceptable for females-which is a double standard. Also different people get emotional in different situations. One boy may be stoic while another is emotional and so on. Age should be taken into consideration. Calling a female child ‘pathetic’ for crying over say, an especially painful injury or the loss of a good friend would generally make oneself sound like a jerk. The same if it was a male child. I see little difference because of gender.

All in all a lot of your criteria seems like ridiculous standards for a female character to be acceptable. A lot of it is “a female character shouldn’t do something because they’re female”. It reminds me of ‘Affirmative Action’ in a way-trying to avoid anything that remotely looks like a stereotypical trait to “make up” for years of bad female characters. A lot of people consider this to be both annoying and offensive. I find it a bit offensive that a female character should live up to absurd standards just to be declared acceptable, while male characters can have almost any flaws they want without people assuming the author is making a statement about “all males”. Sorry but, when I (and probably a lot of other people) read about a gun-toting super badass, fearless, genius woman who never needs so much as a tissue from a man, I’m not really that interested. They’re too unrelateable and rather annoying to be frank. I would be very disappointed if things like being emotional, having a phobia or anxiety problem became unusable for female characters.

Really I’m honestly just sick to death of flaws being un-allowed to females because they’re girls. Why don’t we just treat them both like characters? It’s sad that when a male character has a flaw it’s usually just a flaw but when a female character has a flaw, people act like it’s a statement on the whole fucking female race.

Note: Crying isn’t inherently weak. I’ve read some health articles that say tears contain stress hormones. A person who holds it in all the time is not being strong-they’re making a big mistake. All that emotion is going to blow sometime.

Note 2: I will agree that I found Arakawa’s comment about girls and guys and how they should be a bit troubling myself. I wrote it off for the most part as an author appeal type thing. Still it seemed superficial and objectifying (of both men and women).

(And as for the trope link-I don’t really like that trope because it’s ridiculous to discredit a woman’s accomplishment if she had any help from a man whatsoever-once again no person is an island.)
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:iconalamostown:
alamostown Featured By Owner Sep 28, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Wow, I know this is old, and that I shouldn't be looking back on comments, but this is amazing, and I couldn't have said it better myself. You are incredible.
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:iconjaybiejarrett:
JaybieJarrett Featured By Owner Sep 28, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
oh uh thanks ^^;
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:iconnaokoelric2250:
NaokoElric2250 Featured By Owner Jul 22, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
"This is a subtrope of The Smurfette Principle:
In a cast with many characters or a Five-Man Band, there is a tendency to give any female character of importance a male character to thank for her position.
If she's The Chick in the team, then she's usually someone's sister, girlfriend or love interest. If she's a military or political leader of some sort, then you can bet that she got the position with help from her father or another male relative. The author or the characters have to choose who gets to join in on the hijinks or know the secrets; chances are, most of the people they choose are going to be men. Women who join in are most commonly there as a "bonus" to someone else, often as a love interest or a family member.
There are shades to this. We may have the Action Girl who has achieved a lot and gone up in society, but whenever her background is brought up, it is always a man in her family (father, uncle, older brother or husband) who is prominent as her predecessor or a key to her success... "
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:iconnaokoelric2250:
NaokoElric2250 Featured By Owner Jul 22, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Oh I forgot two things, sorry. The first is in regards to help. There is difference between a female asking a man for assistance and asking him to something she is perfectly capable of doing herself. Asking for assistance would be along the lines of requesting a man fight alongside her. asking him to something she is perfectly capable of doing herself would be asking her to 'protect' her, save her a bind/kidnap/capture, or preventing said action which she allowed to happen (like Tifa Lockhart, a fucking Martial Artist, and these pathetic, idiotic real life women who want a Prince Charming/Knight In Shining Armour to 'save'/'rescue' her. How many want a women to save them, eh? A women who believes/wants actually believes: "I'm a weak little bitch who's incalculable of looking after herself and needs a man to do.

The second thing is you got the trope wrong. If you had read, you would seen it meant
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:iconnaokoelric2250:
NaokoElric2250 Featured By Owner Jul 22, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Urgh...the missinformed 'flaws' rant. There is a differnce between 'flaw' and 'sexist, stereotypical trait'. For example an over-used, weak, sexist and stereotypical phobia for a female would be harmless-unless-you-are-an-idiot insects, natural things like blood or darknesss...and ghosts. A understandable and non-sexist phobia would be something that could accually cause harm would be my fear of flying and heights. Or guns and fire, like an OC of mine.

Note 1: For women, it is, especially when no man is/would and it is pointless.

Note 2: I am glad someone agrees :).

There. All done. Sorry for the so many replys because of the PS3 character limit.
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:iconnaokoelric2250:
NaokoElric2250 Featured By Owner Jul 22, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
We do nee to make up for the years of bad female characters for true equility. Any female, though allowed to, who thinks otherwise is a self-sexist and certainly not a feninist.
BTW, that is what I meant by 'healer', the weak, pathetic, White Magician Girl. I know of only one male healer, Minwu of "Final Fantasy II" and even then, he is far more heroic, did not have the WMG personility, never needed saving/rescusing, and died. And even his death was heroic, and he battled alongside males in the afterlife, because God forbid, (even now) a male tragicly dies. That is another sexist trope that be eradicated or equal Gender Flipped - the tragicly dead/killed girlfriend/wife/mother/sister/general female close to a hero or villian.
Once, if a women is annoyed by female like that, she is a self-sexis, as plenty of male versions exist.
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:iconnaokoelric2250:
NaokoElric2250 Featured By Owner Jul 22, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Oops, italics error.

No, it would be rude, sexist and chuvanistic of him to offer help/save me based on my gender, because chances are, if it were a male he would walk right on by. That is the only reason a man would help or save a women - because they think cannot do it (and sex). My best friend knows this too, and help both (along with me), such as our bullied male friend and me. I only accept pysical help from women, as I am strong and have self-respect. The end.

Switching the roles is as progressive as a series can be, for both genders. That would be my ideal series. Again, only when all the sexist-to-women tropes (e.g. I Will Protect her/You, Damsel-in-Distress, White Magician Girl, Guys Smash, Girls Shoot, Princess Classic, Nadeshilo Yamato and many, many others), and the masculine Always Male tropes, having equal volumes of Gender Flipped, male and counterparts, I will never accept the originals. The same goes for real life jobs and the like. Again though, that will never
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:iconnaokoelric2250:
NaokoElric2250 Featured By Owner Jul 22, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Finally, you should be you can get a job what with people straving to death without one.

I do not think fighting is the 'most inportant thing ever'. Did you not see the anti-war bit. It depends on the context. I wholeheartly support male passifist, for being brave and strong, and going against what is expected of their gender. Female passifists, on the other hand, are weak, feminine cowards, confroming to Priarchal standands. That is not a Doulbe Standard, it is weakness.
In regards to healing, it is again down to context. A innately submissive, traditionally female/feminine female nurse? Weak. A commanding, intelligent, and knowledgeable female doctor or surgeon? Strong. Also we need more female doctors and male nurses, as people still assume a women on the ward/team is a nurse and gender vise versa.

Regardless of whether it was the first or one hundredth time, when you ask you help, you are being dependant on them for the duration of said help.
No, it would be rude, sexist,
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:iconnaokoelric2250:
NaokoElric2250 Featured By Owner Jul 22, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
(Continued. I may to do this several times. Damn broken laptop. Damn PS3 character limit).
Just a side note, I do not think that anything non-active is pointless, just look at my profile discription.

However I do understand some feminine traits are necessary, such as cooking and cleaning, when no-one eles can do it; but enjoying it is for waste-of-life housewives). Speaking of which, being a houwife/stay-at-home-mum is indeed weak and not a job.
Here is why: firstly, it is a direct and disgusting insult to the women who protested, marched, and burned their bras to get women into the workplace and then paid equality. Next, other then disability or injury, there is no excuse for it. For most of their dependant years, children are at school, giving you plenty of time to work. You can do the cleaning, house chores and looking after children when you get back (which I believe should be evenly split if in a realationship), as it does not take all fucking day.
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:iconnaokoelric2250:
NaokoElric2250 Featured By Owner Jul 22, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
First of all, you are welcome, as I always take my time when it comes to comments. Next, there is no need to apologise as we all have lives outside the internet.

Choosing to be a feminine female is weak because by doing so, they are weakly conforming to what is expected of their gender, and that is weak and pathetic, regardless of gender.
By being a feminine, emotional (such as crying when no man is/for no good or pathetic reason) female, you are just proving Patriarchal men (in both the past and present, unfortunately) that they were right about thinking women frail and too emotional for 'male' things. It is nothing less than supporting the Patriarch and continuing to enforce a negative stereotype..
Femininity in women has every right to be shamed as it an opinion, not a prejudice (like the perfectly allowed Slut-Shaming). In fact, I would not even call feminine females 'women'. They are nothing more than little girls who have yet to mature in real, strong adults.

(continued in next)
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:iconjaybiejarrett:
JaybieJarrett Featured By Owner Jul 22, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Going to respond to them all right here.
Okay....Look I wanted to be polite and stuff but...

Waste-of-life housewives

Ah okay hell no. I'll have you know, my mom stayed at home a lot of the time. And she was also my teacher in middle school because the damn Wake County School system didn't teach me a damn thing (ff they take one look at a non neurotypical kid and shove them aside into a class that teaches them everything they already fucking know.) But anyway, it's because of HER and the sacrifice she made for me that I know what I'm capable of and learned to be confident despite my problems. So, uh waste of life? Fuck that.

Tell me, what's the difference between disallowing a woman to do something that's 'for the boys' and disallowing women to do something because 'it's a stereotypical women's job'? NOTHING. NOTHING AT ALL

Judging women because they don't live up to some standard of what a woman should be is not what feminism is about. It is the polar opposite. Telling me I'm just "self sexist" and I 'secretly hate females' is not going to change that and it's a pretty weak argument. I don't hate females because I see things differently than you do. Feminism=Equality of the sexes and women having the right to get any job they want and MAKE CHOICES FOR THEMSELVES. That's what I support.

I just don't support "equality of the sexes and freedom for women....oh unless you pick an unacceptable job/want to have children/ like something girly/ ever want to cry for an 'unacceptable reason'....then you suck, you weak stupid worthless bitch." The fact that you consider someone a waste of life for merely not living up to your expectations or making a choice in their own life is highly disturbing to me.

Yes saying men can do this, but women can't is a double standard. That being someone’s opinion doesn’t change anything. Saying men can't do this but women can that's also a double standard.

That is the only reason a man would help or save a women - because they think cannot do it (and sex)
Okay reading the comments I now see what you mean by help even though I misunderstood before. But I just wanted to point out something.
This statement right here is sexist. It appears to assume all guys are the same/approach one thing in the same manner. If it would be bigoted to say when directed at girls it’s just as bad the other way around. I know plenty of guys. I’ve known good ones and I’ve known nasty ones. I’ve met guys who are totally uninterested in sex and treat me like I’m as capable as anyone else (my brother for instance)

Switching the roles just makes new stereotypes in time. Those stereotypes will become exaggerated. And if all females are expected to be rarely emotional, only having ‘acceptable’ fears , only have ‘strong’ jobs and all in all live up to some high expectation just to be considered decent just because they’re female, well it’d be a shitty world to live in. I will agree many of the sexist tropes can be pretty damn annoying. I too hate it when a woman is shoehorned into some role merely because she’s a woman. Women are people. That’s why I believe in gender equality, or not treating anyone especially different for their gender.

Also why should it only be acceptable for a male to be pacifist but not a female? That’s sexist for females inferring that they can’t hold a belief but men can’t. When I talk about pacifists I mean characters who are competent and will fight back if in a defensive position/protecting someone but otherwise seek to avoid violence. Pretty much people that use it as an absolute last resort, but will still use it if there’s no other way. Not characters who are like “No violence EVER!1!!".

For Males tragically dying…..well I agree that it shouldn’t be only females. But if you do it the other way (only males) , it can also become Unfortunate Implications in about ten years. Gender Flipping is a way to avoid sexism, but it isn’t the only way.

Yes there is a difference. I get that. Personally I do avoid giving girls overdone fears (I’d like to see more boys who go “eeeeeeek” at a bug.) But I don’t avoid every possible thing that could be considered stereotypical. A single trait does not a stereotype make. (A fear of black widow spiders because someone close to her got bit and died for example would be somewhat justified. As would say a fear of rabid animals because someone they know suffered from/died of rabies.) But why don’t more series have a girls react to fear by smashing the spider to a dust rather than shrieking and crying? There are tons of ways to reply to fear rather than ‘cower’- and some that don’t make a person useless. But they should also make sense for the CHARACTER not just “oh well, they’re a girl”

Note 1:….again. Saying something is okay for one gender and not the other is a double standard. Writing a girl who sobs crocodile tears because a boy doesn’t like her is annoying and gets old, yes. But crying for genuine things (like seeing a sibling have a serious breakdown and get sent to an institution, losing a sister, being betrayed by a very close friend) shouldn’t be wrong only for girls.

Extra note: The Healer trope you mentioned-that’s a stereotype. I would avoid using it for a girl or a boy. Healing shouldn’t take over someone’s entire character it should just be one aspect. And , a Character that contributes little/ always needs saving is annoying no matter what gender they are.

On the Subtrope you mentioned- ahh I’m sorry my honest mistake I must have looked over that. Now that I know, yes that is obnoxious and stupid. The people in a Five Man Band should get something out of their own ability.
Ed keeping things from Winry did bother me too. I mean I could sort of get keeping things secret because you don’t want them to get in trouble by extension (I wouldn’t want my sisters to get in trouble/attacked/hurt because of me.) But if you let others in on it but shut out the female that creates troublesome implications. At least create a male character that also gets kept out of the loop. That whole scene probably could have been done much better and more carefully.

Thank you for clarifying/bringing mistakes to my attention. I can see some of your points and see where you’re coming from in some cases. But I strongly disagree that females IRL should only take jobs that are “strong”-and calling anyone a waste of life for reasons other than extreme jackassery, child abuse, rape or murder –especially a reason as flimsy as they’re a housewife-is something that I can never respect. I mean I understand if you just don’t want the job for yourself , but shaming other people for a choice in their own life is really stupid. Try managing an entire household sometime and then tell me it’s not really work.

Honestly a debate is not something I’m actively looking for but with certain things I will speak my opinion.
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:iconnaokoelric2250:
NaokoElric2250 Featured By Owner Jul 26, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
I am glad I could help, though I was worried I had offended you.
Well, I am entitled to my opinion, and will never accept these Patriarch-supporting, stereotype-enforcing, and Women's rightsJ-insulting weaklings (in my opinion) along with rapists, child-abusers, animal-abusers and soldiers. Sorry, but I am set in my ways.
PS: I understand about takung care of a household. Still not a job.
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:iconjaybiejarrett:
JaybieJarrett Featured By Owner Jul 26, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Ah I see.

Well I'm sorry I got overheated when I misunderstood some things, my fault. I'm glad this didn't turn into yet another shouting match (Oh gosh those are awful. I normally hate/dread conflict. I worry about offending people as well seeing as I have trouble with social skills. It's almost become a sort of paranoia.)

I can see where you're coming from on some things honestly.

Also-I've known women who go in and out of having a job.

Personally I would be interested to see a few 'house-husband' types. Yanno guys who stay home and take care of house and kids while girls work or work from home. (I have a male OC who when he grows up works from home when he can get work because in his world people don't hire psychic powered people/shapeshifters that much out of prejudiced)

Anyway glad that we can agree to disagree(on the other thing) peacefully. I found your FMA fic very interesting.
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